Jackie Toth joined Fissionary this week to bring Good Energy to the podcast — more specifically, the Good Energy Collective. Jackie is the deputy director and board secretary of the Good Energy Collective, a policy research organization focused on building the progressive case for nuclear energy as a part of the climate change agenda and building alignment with environmental justice and sustainability goals.
On this episode, she joined Mary and Jordan live from COP28 in the UAE to talk about her work and what was happening in Dubai. Jackie was able to find big positives for the world of nuclear.
More than 20 countries on December 2nd had set a goal to collaborate on tripling nuclear energy capacity globally by mid-century, which is great to see. They're recognizing the role that nuclear already plays, in decarbonization and how the IPCC's own research shows nuclear needs to triple by then to reach net-zero.
With many folks calling this year the ‘nuclear COP,’ Jackie told us that the Sapporo Five in particular showed real leadership. To be clear, the Sapporo Five is not a beer club. This group consists of five countries — the US, Canada, Japan, France, and the UK— that committed more than $4.2 billion to uranium enrichment and conversion at the G7 climate conference in Sapporo, Japan earlier this year to help wean countries around the world off Russian fuel.
Part of the excitement around nuclear at COP this year was due to the energy independence that it can provide for a nation.
Most countries want to be energy secure. And most of them also want to reduce their carbon and other emissions to improve national and global health. The geopolitics of energy are real, ensuring energy security is a fundamental goal of most countries' governments and the war in Ukraine has definitely emphasized the dangers of relying on bad actors for your energy supply.
Jackie was also there for Youth Day, where lots of students were present for the conversations at the conference. Climate change has proven to be an issue that young people across the globe care about more than other generations, given they need the planet to be inhabitable. Because of this, more and more young people are becoming climate activists.
At the NetZero Nuclear convening off-site, as well as on-site in the green zone, there were several nuclear activists from all around the world presenting on a panel, including fellow Fissionary [guest] Grace Stanke, and, others like her from, all around the world, talking about the work that they're doing to make nuclear resonate increasingly, like you said, with the youth, but also everyone.
The Good Energy Collective was founded by three women in 2020 and has been making waves in the climate and nuclear spaces ever since. The organization’s focus on environmental justice (learn more about NEI’s Environmental Justice Principles here) has helped them stand out in the crowd. With the nuclear news out of COP, the excitement of the youth like Grace Stanke, and the help of Sapporo Five we can expect more to come from Jackie and the Good Energy Collective.
This is Fissionary, a show exploring how nuclear powers your world. I'm Mary Carpenter.
Jordan Houghton
And I'm Jordan Houghton. Let's jump in. Hey, Mary! And hello, Fissionaries, thanks for tuning in.
Mary Carpenter
Hi, Fissionaries! We're so excited you're here. It's been so fun these past couple episodes, and it's crazy to think this is our last episode of 2023.
Jordan Houghton
I know. The time has flown by, and I am—we both are really grateful for everyone that has tuned in thus far. It's been great getting so much feedback from people around the world.
Mary Carpenter
Yeah, I really hope everyone has enjoyed everyone from Miss America to Rickey Ruff, who's trying to change the fashion industry, to Jesus Nunez, who is trying to help stabilize the electricity grid in Puerto Rico. I feel like we've touched a lot of different subjects this season, but hopefully people are walking away with a little bit more knowledge about nuclear and with more questions about nuclear and wanting to get more involved.
Jordan Houghton
It's been an amazing ride. I love the diversity of conversations that we've had. We are going to take a short holiday hiatus after this episode but we'll be back. It's not gonna be as long as between seasons of The Crown before we're back on air.
Mary Carpenter
Oh my gosh, it's so painful right now, waiting for TV shows!
Jordan Houghton
That show's always making us wait for years!
Mary Carpenter
Yeah! But all TV shows now after the writer's strike, I feel like I'll be waiting a long time.
Jordan Houghton
Forever!
Mary Carpenter
Yes. We promise not to make you guys wait too long for our next episode.
Jordan Houghton
It’s gonna be great, we're gonna fill in the gap when there's no—when everyone has watched all of the TV and we're waiting for new TV, I know everybody's gonna spend their time with Fissionary.
Mary Carpenter
Yes, if you have run out of TV shows, turn on Fissionary, where we will be here for you. But today's an exciting episode. I kind of feel like Saturday Night Live, it's live from Dubai, it's Fissionary. Sadly, we're not there, but our guest is, and we had a really good conversation, hearing about COP live from the ground.
Jordan Houghton
Yeah, so COP28, happening in Dubai this year, for our listeners who don't know what those letters are, which, by the way, has included most of my family and friends who are like, ‘You're working on what these last two weeks? COP? What is that?” COP stands for Conference of the Parties, which is the United Nations climate change conference that happens every year, and this year is COP28, which means it's the 28th one of these, and it is the biggest one yet.
Mary Carpenter
Yeah. It's massive compared to previous years. We were looking at a chart, I think yesterday, showing that attendees have pretty much—I believe doubled this year. More than 80 thousand people are attending COP this year when in other years, it looks like it was under 40 thousand. So, I mean, it's a big interest in COP, it keeps getting more popular, and at the same time, nuclear is becoming more popular at COP. The conversations are picking up as more people realize how critical nuclear is to, decarbonization. Nuclear is really starting to take center stage at COP and it’s really exciting to see.
Jordan Houghton
Fascinating announcements coming out of COP this year. In previous years, for listeners who don't know, nuclear has really had to fight its way into the conversation and was not a huge part of the dialogue. This year, COP essentially started with a huge announcement of more than 20 nations promising to triple nuclear energy by 2050, and the announcements have just rolled out from there. There's been commitments on fuel and financing and it's just been a really exciting time for nuclear, as we've seen all year, but really culminating in the actions and pledges coming out of this conference.
Mary Carpenter
Yeah, we’ve seen the headlines, have been so exciting. We saw Canary Media put out a line this week, “COP28 might be remembered as the nuclear COP.” So, the headlines are really exciting, and we're really loving seeing everything come out of COP this week. And our guest has a live take from the ground, so let's jump in and hear from her.
Jordan Houghton
Awesome, Love it. Our guest today is Jackie Toth, who is the deputy director of Good Energy Collective, a woman-led policy research organization advancing community-centered, progressive policies in support of nuclear energy. Toth was previously the advisor for policy and content at the think tank Third Way, conducting survey research and developing policy and communications products for the climate and energy program. A former journalist—we love that, we love it—Jackie reported on federal energy and environmental law, regulations, and politics at CQ Roll Call and Morning Consult in Washington, DC. Jackie, thank you so much for joining us today from the ground at COP!
Jackie Toth
So glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Mary Carpenter
So, Jackie is on the ground at COP in Dubai. Jackie, give us, first impression, how's it going? Is it busy? Tell us everything.
Jackie Toth
Yeah, I've been—I've been making some notes on what I'm seeing that I've called my “COP-servations”.
Mary Carpenter
I love that, that's amazing.
Jackie Toth
We got in late—I got in December 6th. You know, by December 6th, there have been a lot of great announcements on nuclear. More than 20 countries on December 2nd had set a goal to collaborate on tripling nuclear energy capacity globally by midcentury, which is great to see. They're recognizing the role that nuclear already plays in decarbonization and how the IPCC's own research shows nuclear needs to triple by then to reach net zero. Today, I was exploring the green zone of Expo City! It is massive, it's even larger than Central Park by a good 20 acres.
Mary Carpenter
Oh, wow.
Jackie Toth
There are huge buildings dedicated to issues like the energy transition and mobility, climate finance, with really highly designed booths from different companies and development authorities, or about different topics. And today, the theme of COP was focused on youth and children. There were so many student groups in attendance and that was uplifting, to see them getting to explore the grounds, get inspired. It was a lot quieter today than I heard it had been, but over 100 thousand people have come to COP this year, so the energy is quite high.
Mary Carpenter
That's amazing.
Jordan Houghton
100 thousand people is incredible. Huge number.
Mary Carpenter
We were looking at some charts I think yesterday, Jordan, and looking at how it's increased every year. And this year, it seems there's more people, by far, than any other year, so, very exciting. Jackie, can you share with the listeners a little bit, what you mean by ‘green zone’, ‘blue zone’, for people who haven't been before?
Jackie Toth
Yeah, sure. So, I don't know if it's exactly split half-and-half, but anybody, globally, can enter—if they have a ticket, that you can register for online—the green zone, that's fully public. And there are a lot of different booths and buildings at Expo City that are accessible to anybody to walk in and learn more about different technologies and organizations and attend different panel conversations on the climate challenge. And north of that, connected to the green zone, you would need to go through another level of security and have a badge to enter the blue zone, which is where a lot of the negotiations among the delegates around the world take place, and then some other programming on climate, and badges can be few and far between. I know many of our community were identifying who has the badges. And so, some folks end up needing to do some badge trading to be able to enter that zone. But there's certainly a lot to do in both zones.
Mary Carpenter
So, have you been to other COPs, or is this your first one?
Jackie Toth
I haven't! No, before this COP, Good Energy Collective was still very young as an organization. And right before that, we faced the worst of the COVID pandemic. And my focus on what was strictly US congressional energy and climate policy as a reporter meant that a trip to COP probably wouldn't have been in the cards with my editor.
Jordan Houghton
Is this your first time in Dubai?
Jackie Toth
It is, oh my goodness, and it's astounding. I mean, it's just incredible architecture. I was snapping so many terribly lit tourist photos on my cab ride home from the airport. The wealth of—I mean, the wealth here is very palpable. It's very clearly also an international city. Most signage is in both Arabic and English. It's also very unexpectedly green here. A lot of palm trees. They have a beautiful beach walk and a beachfront you can swim in. So, yeah, total tourist town.
Mary Carpenter
Have you gotten to do any touristy things, or have you just mostly been at COP?
Jackie Toth
No, I mean, nuclear is pretty cool. I haven't done anything very non-nuclear that's as cool yet. But I hope to make it this weekend to the Burj Khalifa, the world's tallest building.
Mary Carpenter
Yeah!
Jackie Toth
Though, I do have it on good authority from a friend that it is actually so tall you can't determine much of what is below you, the planes flying overhead look a lot closer than they typically do.
Mary Carpenter
That is wild.
Jordan Houghton
Okay. So, let's talk about nuclear COP since you're in the midst of it. What is your impression of nuclear COP this year? I read a story earlier this week that dubbed it the ‘nuclear COP’, which, for people listening, this has not been the case at previous COPs. So, I would love to hear about what you're seeing and hearing is the buzz on nuclear this year.
Jackie Toth
Yeah, sure. It's big here this year. I think the tripling announcement on December 2nd, very early in COP, definitely queued up nuclear as a key point of discussion this year. This is the second year, too, that the International Atomic Energy Agency has a pavilion dedicated to nuclear energy in the blue zone, where badged entrance is allowed only. That's where the delegates deliberate on the big issues. The White House had put out, you know, a fact sheet last week on various announcements the US has been making on nuclear at COP and in addition to the that tripling announcement, I mean, the Export-Import Bank and the State Department are making clear that they're ready to play on supporting civil nuclear export projects abroad. So, good to see the US really taking a lead role here. And yesterday, I saw Assistant Secretary for Nuclear Energy at the US Department of Energy Dr. Kathryn Huff, along with other energy ministers from four other countries constituting what are wonderfully called the ‘Sapporo Five’—that's the US, Canada, Japan, France, and the UK—that have committed a massive 4.2 billion over several years on uranium enrichment and conversion to wean us off of Russian uranium fuel and secure the global fuel supply for uranium. So, I think we would like to continue to see more of an integrated presence of nuclear. I could say, you know, today, hanging out in the green zone, there is a great booth from NetZero Nuclear, an initiative of the World Nuclear Association and the Emirates Nuclear Energy Corporation that's been spearheading a lot of the programming around nuclear at and around COP. So, hopefully, more of that kind of booth and presence in future years, but I've been pleased with what I've seen.
Jordan Houghton
For listeners who don't understand the reference to the Sapporo Five, it is not a beer club. It is based off of the G7 conference earlier this year, happened in Sapporo Japan, and there was initial fuel commitment made there, so this is building off of that, which is why they've gotten the ‘Sapporo Five’ nickname!
Mary Carpenter
Very important distinction to make, thank you, Jordan! So, I want to hear more about what you're seeing for nuclear. Really exciting, you know, we've been seeing all the headlines back home. Why do you think that it's changed this year? What do you think played into that?
Jackie Toth
Yeah, I mean, a lot of the great guests that you've spoken with on Fissionary this season have talked about the rationale for why nuclear is having a moment, so I'll be brief here, but most countries want to be energy secure. And most of them also want to reduce their carbon and other emissions to improve national and global health. The geopolitics of energy are real. Ensuring energy security is a fundamental goal of most countries' governments and the war in Ukraine has definitely emphasized the dangers of relying on bad actors for your energy supply. The tension that sometimes exists between climate action and energy security is much less of attention for nuclear, which both operates without emitting carbon and is practically 24/7 reliable. It's an attractive technology on both of those key attributes that more and more countries are prioritizing every year in tandem. Not just emissions reduction or energy security, but both. And unless, or even—you know, if even if your country is blessed with options for abundant hydropower, which has some of the similar positive attributes, a lot more countries are looking at nuclear to fill those two roles.
Mary Carpenter
So, we've seen all these, like, big announcements, right, that you were just talking about. Do you feel like change actually comes out of COP, or is it more just, you know, talk?
Jackie Toth
I think see a lot of differing opinions on this. Some folks see the COP convenings as ways for politicians to make climate commitments that they're not necessarily keeping at home. Many wish the summary statements committed to phase outs of fossil fuels by a certain date, which some countries will not agree to, and so those commitments are not included. Others say we've, at minimum, got to meet, and plan toward real climate solutions, and it's important and welcome for the world's leaders to at least try at regular intervals to stretch toward their climate ambitions.
Jordan Houghton
Have there been any big surprises for you this year from this COP?
Jackie Toth
This might not be a surprise, but I think what has stood out is how much money goes into putting on a conference like this! The consulting firm McKinsey has a giant booth, the luxury EV maker Polestar had a huge floor space today with three or four cars on display. It really reinforced the sense that climate action is increasingly becoming a business opportunity. And it crossed my mind that some of that money might be better spent on climate adaptation measures.
Jordan Houghton
That's a really great point. And I haven't been there on the ground, but I imagine, and have seen some pictures of the green zone, that give sort of like a huge, almost World's Fair conference vibe, where you can see companies coming to just tout whatever they're doing in the climate space so everybody knows about it.
Jackie Toth
There was a lot of that.
Mary Carpenter
I want to hear more about what you're saying towards the beginning of the interview about today being youth day. Have you seen a lot of younger people there and engaged, and are they also interested in nuclear at COP?
Jackie Toth
I didn't get to chat with the students. I was observing their excitement around being there, with their fellow students and looking wide-eyed at just how, you know, large and incredible this convening is in bringing people from all around the world together on an issue that, as we know, youth hold very dear to their heart, the climate challenge, and seeing, you know, real action in this space.
Jordan Houghton
It's really thrilling to see them engage, and I feel like youth engagement is a theme we've seen this season of Fissionary. We've had a lot of younger guests who are making really global impacts through their work, and—I'm thinking about John Marshall's son trying to convince him to get into climate research. So, I love that that is a component of this conference, that we are acknowledging the power that the next generation of leaders has to make a difference.
Jackie Toth
Absolutely. And at the NetZero Nuclear convening off-site, as well as on-site in the green zone, there were several nuclear activists from all around the world presenting on a panel, including fellow Fissionary, presenter, Grace Stanke, and others like her from all around the world talking about the work that they're doing to make nuclear resonate increasingly, like you said, with the youth, but also everyone.
Jordan Houghton
No, I love it! Fellow Fissionaries representing at COP!
Mary Carpenter
I've been following Grace on Instagram since she's been there, and it seems like everyone is so positive, and she's been—she showed this really cool video about nuclear that was super inspiring, and—what's the vibe like on the ground? Is that—am I getting the right feeling through Instagram?
Jackie Toth
People are feeling, I think, positive about the trajectory of nuclear energy at this COP, which, as a nuclear advocate, has been great to see and great to be in a room with similar minded folks who are trying has spread the word and advance good solutions to our climate challenge.
Jordan Houghton
That's great to hear. I would love for you to tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got to where you are today. Have you always had an interest in clean energy and climate change?
Jackie Toth
I would call myself an ‘environmentalist light’, I tend to vacillate between environmentalism and existentialism. No, I'm kidding, I grew up in a pretty small town in upper Bucks County, PA, my one-acre yard was pretty much my training ground as a young fake biologist. I grew up loving to explore nature, was a dedicated Ranger Rick Magazine subscriber—real ones remember Ranger Rick—and I have always been fascinated with plants and animals. I think moving to DC for college in 2011 changed that a bit, but I was still—you know, I still unintentionally impress my partner sometimes when we'll take walks and I'll point out the various plants and animals.
Mary Carpenter
I love when I see just, like, a random—like, a fox or anything, like, exciting in DC, like—one animal is just, like, so exciting because you never see them! Like, I'll see a deer and get excited.
Jackie Toth
It's so true, the deer in Rock Creek Park!
Mary Carpenter
So, tell us how you got into journalism.
Jackie Toth
Yeah, in the words of the great Bob Ross, it was a happy accident.
Mary Carpenter
Bob Ross, what a legend.
Jackie Toth
I know!
Mary Carpenter
Love him.
Jackie Toth
My first gig out of college was on the research team at the news firm CQ Roll Call. I have always loved to write, and thankfully had some early opportunities in that role to write for the then-weekly magazine and cover congressional markups on the Hill for their flagship legislative tracking service. And my boss at the time is a wonderful mentor, suggested that I fill an open role on the reporting side covering energy and environment. I was very glad to oblige, and started developing a beat in that space, built up my local DC source space, and moved over to Morning Consult twenty eighteen and covered advanced nuclear in particular for about a year and a half.
Jordan Houghton
How did you go from journalist to advocate?
Jackie Toth
Yeah, I was interested in leveraging what I'd been learning about energy policy, as an advocate, myself. Also, as a reporter, objectivity—obviously crucial—but I didn't want to feel anymore, on occasion that, you know, I was pushing a particular narrative when talking about fossil fuels. I felt a kinship, too, with a lot of the folks I was chatting with, you know, and covering the work they were doing on good climate action and wanted to see how I could contribute.
Mary Carpenter
We talked a little bit about this, how we've seen COP coverage of nuclear change. How have you seen coverage of nuclear change since you started your career in journalism?
Jackie Toth
I think in part, thanks to, again, this global increasing recognition of the important role that nuclear energy already plays in avoiding additional emissions and can continue to play in avoiding emissions, as well as an increased vocalness among nuclear activists and supporters, and helping reporters understand the role that nuclear can play, and bringing that nuance to bear in the reporting. I think you've seen that shift start to take place.
Jordan Houghton
Do you remember—or, where did your interest in nuclear start?
Jackie Toth
Yeah, as a reporter, I remember the first story I wrote on nuclear for Morning Consult that really caught my interest and attention. It was on—honestly, an obscure provision in the fiscal 2019 National Defense Authorization Act bill that was calling on the Energy Department to consider piloting deployment of a microreactor. And there was a political discussion going on because the bill indicated that the microreactor could be up to 50 megawatts electric, which, as keen listeners of Fissionary and trackers of nuclear will know, is not the typical understanding of a max size of a microreactor. It's usually ten megawatts electric or lower. So, that was a good first foray into the mythos that is nuclear policy coverage.
Mary Carpenter
So, tell us about Good Energy Collective. Give our listeners a little background on what it is and what you guys are doing.
Jackie Toth
Yeah, sure. Good Energy—we were founded in mid-2020 by three women who came from the nuclear energy advocacy, policy, and innovation space. And they had recognized there was this gap in nuclear policy development, which was in developing good social policy for nuclear. Most of the policy attention and activity that I was covering as a journalist, it's gone toward innovation and investment policy, which is important, but not the full story when it comes to nuclear. There are key enabling resources and research that can go a long way toward nuclear contributing toward a more just transition to clean energy for communities and identifying ways the nuclear industry can work effectively to earn public trust in their operations. So, that's what we're working on. Likewise, you know, ours is a team of progressives. We work on developing and—developing policies and educating around those policies that focus people and their communities. We're nonpartisan, which means we can work toward real solutions that support communities that host, or could host, nuclear infrastructure and fuel cycle facilities at the front or back end. We’re a policy research nonprofit working at the intersection of nuclear energy and environmental justice, we don't accept any funding from industry, which is important in engaging credibly with folks in groups who still have questions about nuclear technology.
Jordan Houghton
Do you think any of the announcements that have come out of COP this year are going to impact your work going forward? Do you see it shifting any of your priorities or supporting things that you have ongoing?
Jackie Toth
Certainly. I'd say the announcement for The Sapporo Five to invest over four billion over several years in developing uranium enrichment capacity is crucial to enable advanced nuclear technologies that we want to see succeed to be able to do so. I think the fuels question is one that is taking a lot of our attention as folks who want to see nuclear move forward, and seeing an investment of that size by five key nuclear producers is inspiring and also will hopefully continue to mean that federal policy measures support a domestic US enrichment capacity development here in the US.
Mary Carpenter
Great, and you mentioned environmental justice. I'm curious how—if you could tell our listeners a little bit about how you see nuclear supporting environmental justice.
Jackie Toth
Yeah, we get that question a lot from fellow nuclear advocates. Speaking generally here, the government and other industries made decisions for decades that marginalized a lot of communities. I encourage, always, nuclear advocates to balance this question of nuclear and environmental justice as one of both process and the distribution of benefits. Let me take the process part first. The EPA has a working definition of EJ that's all about the fair treatment and meaningful involvement of communities that are impacted by federal policy decisions that impact their health. A lot of overburdened and underserved communities in the US are that way because permitting processes and infrastructure planning decisions were based not on local project support or inclusion, but where land was cheapest, or there was water access, or energy demand was highest, and where local communities had the least power to push back on citing decisions, which were often communities of color. Today, they may want nuclear or other infrastructure development, and they might not, and that's okay. What's key here in EJ is employing a process that empowers all communities to be meaningfully involved in the decisions around their energy mix and lets them arrive at an informed decision. Willing and informed consent with the ability to say no is important from a procedural justice perspective. And, importantly, I think being willing to respect when it's a no is going to save project developers time and is still a win from a procedural justice perspective. There are other places that will be interested in nuclear that developers can focus on instead. If we're talking about distributive justice, that's ensuring that the distribution of benefits and risks is more equitable across our society and expands those benefits, including to those who have been left behind. So, EJ communities should have the opportunity to learn about nuclear and come to an informed conclusion themselves, whether it's something they would like to pursue. One of the topics that we focus on at Good Energy Collective is looking at coal-to-nuclear repowering coal plant communities, which certainly face injustices of air pollution from coal plants, may well be more interested in hosting nuclear infrastructure at their retiring coal facilities than other communities. And polling from Potential Energy Coalition had applied some county data from our 2021 report on the coal-to-nuclear topic that bore that hypothesis out, that you might see more support from coal closure communities that are familiar with hosting large energy infrastructure and are looking for a way to help save their towns. We're seeing that in the TerraPower demonstration out in Wyoming, in Kemmerer, right now. To say that nuclear is a panacea for environmental justice, it does risk reducing the lived experiences of those communities to kind of a sound bite, or makes an assumption of what they should want without listening to them first. So, we definitely encourage the nuclear industry to listen to communities, including EJ ones. Understand what they would like to see as the country transitions to clean energy and identify how to design better and more inclusive projects or approaches based on local knowledge and experience. That's really the vision of a progressive energy future.
Jordan Houghton
Thank you so much for explaining that and going into that. I think it's so important that—we're seeing demand all over the world. We want the capacity skill up to be done right in a way that everybody feels good about.
Jackie Toth
Our executive director, Jessica Lovering, and Judi Greenwald, executive director of the Nuclear Innovation Alliance, wrote a great op-ed in Utility Dive this year where they talked about—that it's a false dichotomy that we can't have a just permitting process and speedy, successful climate timeline, sensitive permitting, and project development at the same time. We can do both and we should.
Jordan Houghton
You’ve been on the ground at COP, you've heard a lot of the conversations that are taking place. There's a lot going on. The schedules, if anyone listening goes and sees all of the events happening, the schedules are packed for everybody. And I'm curious if there are any conversations you would have liked to see make it in that didn't, and are things that still need to be talked about after this COP wraps.
Jackie Toth
Yeah, I think having been here about 48 hours now and having attended a lot of the nuclear conversations outside and inside COP and the green zone, I think we would like to see more conversation around what the industry intends to do to address the social acceptability problem of nuclear and make sure that we are putting real resources toward policies that enable communities to benefit from nuclear and that leverage all of the interest in nuclear in a way that is positive for folks on the ground. I think just being clear about the importance of relationship-building with prospective nuclear host communities is really crucial for everyone from the developer to the advocate to be able to have that conversation about how we're going to take this important message around the role that nuclear can play in climate and national security on the ground and the benefits that it can play and provide.
Mary Carpenter
So, looking ahead to next year, what do you think COP looks like for nuclear and just in general?
Jackie Toth
Yeah, I'm optimistic that the ultimate statement that comes out of this COP will be favorable to nuclear. Last year, it was great to see that it included a reference to low-carbon and renewable energy and not just renewable, which means that nuclear is envisioned as part of the climate solution globally. So, hoping to see that continued this year, or maybe even nuclear's front and center inclusion and a path forward for the world to move forward meaningfully on climate. I think next year, we'll see the same momentum continue to move into high gear. This year has been so big for nuclear in terms of the global commitment that we're seeing from an increasing number of countries that want nuclear as part of their energy mix, ones that already have nuclear, that want to expand it, ones that are looking to identify, how are we gonna stay energy secure? How are we going to be able to provide electricity to our folks that haven't had it historically? And nuclear is looking good, and we see that reflected this year and likely in future years to come.
Jordan Houghton
You're gonna get the last word on this since this is our season finale, but how would you describe the future of nuclear in one word?
Jackie Toth
The joke answers are definitely energized, generational, or super critical, or something like that. But I'm gonna go with promising.
Mary Carpenter
That's a really good one. Jackie, thank you so much for joining us today. This was such a great conversation, and enjoy COP!
Jackie Toth
It was an absolute pleasure, thanks so much!
Jordan Houghton
Thanks so much to Jackie for staying up late in Dubai, taking time to talk to us today. What an awesome conversation. If you want to learn more about Good Energy Collective, you can find them online at goodenergycollective.org.
Mary Carpenter
Yeah, that was great, having Jackie on and hearing her experience firsthand. It helps those of us who aren't there understand a little bit more about what's going on, so that was great. A really fun last episode of 2023. A reminder, we'll be on holiday hiatus for a little while, but we will be back in your podcast feeds at the beginning of 2024.
Jordan Houghton
Thanks to everybody who has listened so far, we're really grateful for you. If you have any ideas or suggestions for guests or conversations you want to hear when we come back in 2024, please reach out. We'd love to hear what you want to hear.
Mary Carpenter
Yeah, we want to hear from you guys. Follow us on, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, at Nuclear Energy Institute. Let us know who you want to hear from, what topics you want to learn about, and what you want to see going into the next season.
Jordan Houghton
And we'd love if you could take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, or whatever platform you listen to us from.
Mary Carpenter
Thanks, everyone. Happy holidays and happy New Year, we'll see you in 2024!
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