Preparing Nuclear Waste for the Next Ice Age

Mary Carpenter This is Fissionary, a show exploring how nuclear powers your world. I'm Mary Carpenter.  

Jordan Houghton And I'm Jordan Houghton. Let's jump in.  

Mary Carpenter Hey, everyone! Welcome back to Fissionary. Hey, Jordan.  

Jordan Houghton Hey, Mary, today we are getting into something that sparks a lot of strong opinions and more than a few sci-fi level misconceptions: nuclear waste. This is always one of the top questions we get. What about the waste, what about the waste? And I am so excited, honestly so excited that we are digging into this today. We're talking about it head on. There's a great, amazing story here that we're going to share. And I'm just really heartened to be able to have a level-headed conversation about it.  

Mary Carpenter Yeah, I mean, I'm guessing a lot of our listeners when they think about nuclear waste, they think about The Simpsons and they think about green goo. But the reality of nuclear waste and what we actually do with it is far more complex, it's very important, and it has nothing to do with green goo. 

Jordan Houghton Yeah, so we're talking today to Lisa Frizzell, who is the VP of Communications at the Nuclear Waste Management Organization in Canada, and they have recently selected a site for their permanent repository in Canada for used fuel. And I have to tell you, Mary, listening to everything Lisa said, I—obviously I consider myself an adopted daughter of Southern Nevada, I spent so many years living there and was there through so much of the back-and-forth on Yucca Mountain. And the way that that issue was politicized was really just disheartening. And it caused a lot of strife within the community, it still does anytime it comes up, and so this conversation for me was actually sort of cathartic, to see a model someplace else, where it was done thoughtfully in a way that engaged the local communities and came to a really positive outcome. And I think ultimately, the conversation highlights that when you get to the heart of nuclear waste storage, there is a way to do it safely, it's not as scary as it seems, and if you take a moment and engage and learn and are thoughtful about it, you realize maybe this is actually something you want in your community.  

Mary Carpenter Yeah, the conversation is so interesting, and I can't wait for you all to hear what Lisa has to say because they really did engage all constituencies. They engaged people who are anti-nuclear, they engaged young people in the communities. They thought about how this is a multi-generational project. I mean, they even are looking out—far enough out to the next Ice Age! So, it's so interesting to hear how with science and facts, this project's moving forward even when you are talking to people who have an anti sentiment against nuclear. So, it is really exciting to hear her break it down.  

Jordan Houghton Yeah, and I think, you know, one thing that we emphasize—we emphasize and also Lisa does throughout the episode—when you're hearing her talk about the way that this repository is engineered, it is being engineered for generations, for thousands upon thousands of years. And so, the safeguards that you're going to hear about are not because today it's that dangerous. It's literally, as you said, Mary, to, like, survive the next Ice Age when it's so many generations from now, people may not even know that it's still there.  

Mary Carpenter That is crazy to think about. Jordan, I want to hear more about your experience in Nevada and tell our listeners a little bit about Yucca Mountain if—in case they don't even know what that is.  

Jordan Houghton Yeah, so Yucca Mountain was selected or designated as the potential long-term repository for nuclear fuel, used nuclear fuel in the country. And it got a lot of pushback because it initially came out as like, this is where we're going to put it. There were not conversations about whether people in Southern Nevada wanted it there, and it was sort of foisted upon them. And then it became—honestly, became very politicized. Like if you dig into the science of it, and actually I worked at a museum in Las Vegas that was focused on nuclear weapons testing, but we got a lot of questions on Yucca Mountain. But shout out to the Pahrump Valley Museum, which actually has an incredible exhibit on Yucca Mountain and used fuel that was curated by a good friend of mine who I worked with, who was the chief scientist on the Yucca Mountain project. The science is solid. And so, you can go and you can ask questions about it of scientists. And it went through a whole licensing process. I think that the major pitfall was the way it got politicized. And, you know, when politics gets involved, there's a lot of back and forth and people trying to share their different opinions. And so, I think my perspective on it is that's where it kind of ran afoul; it kind of derailed from the actual facts and science. But the information is there and it's available and obviously the project was halted. And so, currently in the US, we do not have a long-term permanent storage solution, but I have to tell you, Mary, talking to Lisa really made me feel very hopeful that we're gonna have a positive outcome, and that we’re gonna find a way to do it here in the US that makes everybody feel good and comfortable.  

Mary Carpenter Yeah, well, Lisa walked us through the project and the community engagement, and I can't wait for our listeners to hear, so let's jump in.  

Jordan Houghton Today, we're joined by Lisa Frizzell, Vice President of Communications at the Nuclear Waste Management Organization, or NWMO. Lisa has spent more than a decade helping Canadians understand nuclear waste and the bold plan underway to manage it. Not just for today, but for the next 100,000 years. Lisa, I'm super excited to have you on the show. We're nuclear communicators, so it's amazing to have a fellow nuclear communicator on with us. Can you start by telling us a little bit more about yourself, how you got involved with the NWMO, and actually tell our listeners a little more about what it is?  

Lisa Frizzell Yeah. Of course, and thank you for having me. I'm always excited to talk about nuclear waste. It's my favorite dinner party conversation. Delighted to be here. So, as you said, I have been with the Nuclear Waste Management Organization for more than a decade now, time sure flies. Before that, I've always had a career in communications and mostly in the energy industry, but this is actually my first nuclear job, and I dove in with both feet right into nuclear waste, the best part. So, lucky me! The organization that I work with, the NWMO, is the organization in Canada that's responsible for the long-term management of Canada's intermediate and high-level radioactive waste. We were set up in 2002 by an act of parliament, so we're implementing a federal law, but we're actually a not-for-profit organization. We were set up at arm's length to implement this law and we’re funded by the organizations that own the waste, so the nuclear energy generators.  

Mary Carpenter So, let's start with the big picture for our listeners. Why is it so important for Canada, and really any country, to have a long-term permanent solution for used nuclear fuel?  

Lisa Frizzell So today, all of the radioactive waste is stored in licensed facilities near the reactor sites and it's super safe! We know where all of it is, we know exactly how to keep it managed safely, but the way it's managed today isn't appropriate for the very long term because the material stays hazardous for thousands and thousands of years, and it is widely recognized, not just in Canada, but around the world that deep geological repositories are a better way to keep it safe for the future. That way we're not leaving this waste that we created and benefited from as a burden for future generations to manage because the project that we're implementing to store it over the very long term will keep all of the used fuel passively safe, so it doesn't need to be actively managed on the surface.  

Mary Carpenter Will you dive in a little bit more into that and tell our listeners what the project is that you're working on?  

Lisa Frizzell So we're implementing a deep geological repository for used nuclear fuel. And this is a facility that's built deep underground in a big block of rock. It'll use multiple engineered and natural barriers to keep all of the used nuclear fuel that we create in Canada safely contained and isolated. So, once we build the repository, all of the used fuel that's stored safely in interim storage facilities today will be moved into specialized containers behind specially designed barriers deep underground so that future generations don't have to worry about it.  

Jordan Houghton Can you explain to our listeners a little bit more detail about what a deep geological repository is and why that method is considered the international gold standard for storage?  

Lisa Frizzell Yeah, so, the great thing about a deep geological repository is once it's backfilled and sealed many years in the future from now, it can be passively safe, and that means it doesn't rely on humans or institutions to actively manage it, like, it would have to be managed on the surface. It's been studied and tested this concept for many, many years in Canada and other countries, and there really is international scientific consensus that this is the safest way we know right now to keep all of our used nuclear fuel safe essentially forever so we don't have to pass it on as a burden for future generations. So, a deep geological repository is a facility built deep underground inside a really strong rock formation. And a bunch of emplacement rooms are carved out of that rock and the used fuel is placed in there inside multiple barriers. So, the fuel itself is a solid, it doesn't leak or explode or flow the way we sometimes think of images of used nuclear fuel. That fuel will be placed inside super strong containers that are made out of steel and coated with copper. And the reason we use steel is because we can make the containers really, really strong to withstand the pressure of 500 meters of rock above it and three kilometers of ice, because we're actually planning for future Ice Ages. And the reasons we use copper outside that container is because deep underground at depth where there's no oxygen, copper protects against corrosion. So, it keeps the container safe from corrosion effectively forever. The container itself is placed inside what we call a buffer box. And the buffer box is made out of clay. It's a special clay called bentonite clay. If you have a cat, you might have bentonite clay in your kitty litter. And one of the great things about bentonite clay, is it naturally swells if it comes into contact with water. So, if water found its way into the repository, these buffer boxes would swell and seal in the containers even more. And then those buffer boxes are placed inside these emplacement rooms deep underground in the repository. And eventually, once the repository is full, we backfill it with more materials, like the bentonite clay, and seal it up. So, in order for any radionuclides to escape into the environment, they would have to escape from this solid fuel pellet through the metal that makes up the fuel bundle, somehow make their way outside of the steel container that's coated with copper. And then get past all of that bentonite clay and through more than 500 meters of rock. So, there really is multiple layers of safety built into this repository to make it so that it's virtually impossible for the radiation to hurt people or the environment essentially forever.  

Jordan Houghton I'm never going to look at my cat's litter box the same now, after I have—I want to just like highlight something that I think is important. You've gone through all of these steps. It's incredible. So interesting, so much thought and science and engineering goes into this. But I do want to highlight, we're talking about storage forever, so when we're talking about all of those levels of protection, it is not because today the waste needs to be protected from people in that way, because it's so dangerous. It is because it is being engineered and designed so that centuries and—you know, long after our grandchildren's grandchildren are gone, it is still safe and protected for whatever comes climate wise, or evolution, whatever. So, I just wanted to highlight that because I know that this topic, especially for our who aren't in nuclear necessarily, can be kind of scary to approach.  

Lisa Frizzell Yes, I think that's a really good point, because really the goal of this is to plan for no matter what happens and make sure that the environment and people are safe. So, just to give you an example of one of the ways we do that, we assume in all of our modeling that far into the future, hundreds thousands of years into the future, there's a family living on the surface above this repository. And our goal is to keep that family safe. And so, we test it against all kinds of assumptions, so we test it assuming they don't know the repository is there, and they are getting all of their food from above the repository, their well water comes from above the repository, and we still want to make sure that family is safe. And then we check, what if something goes wrong? What if one of the barriers doesn't work? Will the other one, the next barrier is in place to keep it safe? What if all the barriers don't work? Is the family still safe? And the entire repository is designed so that no matter what happens, that family is safe.  

Jordan Houghton So, tell us a little bit about what used fuel actually is and looks like, because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about that. I mean, you're starting to see videos on social media of influencers, nuclear influencers, or energy influencers going up to like the temporary storage casks and kissing the casks or putting their pregnant bellies on the cask, but you don't actually see what's inside of them. So, tell our listeners a little bit about that looks like.  

Lisa Frizzell It's actually nothing like what you see on The Simpsons. It's not glowing green goo. It is actually a solid. In Canada, we have CANDU reactors and the fuel they use is about the size of a fireplace log. It's solid material. The fuel bundle itself looks like, well, kind of like a metal fireplace log made out of all these rods called pencils. And it's made of a really strong metal alloy called zircaloy that's extremely tough. It can withstand the heat and rigor of a nuclear reactor. And inside those fuel pencils are pellets, called fuel pellets, and they're made of baked uranium, so it's a really hard ceramic. It's not liquid. It's not gas, it doesn't corrode. It's a very, very durable material. And the fuel bundles themselves are not explosive. They're not fissile. When you put them into the reactor before they go in, they're actually safe to handle. They're not so radioactive that they would make you sick or harm you in any way. But after they've spent some time in the reactor, being used to generate electricity that we use every day, when they come out of the reactor they're really hot, temperature-wise and also extremely radioactive. And the first thing that's done with them when they've come out the reactor is they're put underwater in pools. And they sit in those pools for about eight to 10 years to give them a chance to cool and for some of the radioactivity to dissipate. And then eventually they're put into the kinds of casks you described, those containers that sit on the surface that are very thick, durable containers and they're stored there quite safely. Nothing much ever happens. They're monitored very carefully to make sure that, you know, that everything is safe, and they sit there until we're ready to come pick it up and move it into the repository.  

Mary Carpenter So, tell us a little bit about the selection process for the new site. What's involved in selecting a site and why is it such an important decision?  

Lisa Frizzell We, very recently, just in November, announced where our deep geological repository will be located. This was a really exciting decision for us, and it was the culmination of many, many years of work, not only by the NWMO, but by many communities that we worked actively with. So, we launched the site selection process in 2010 and we actually designed that process based on extensive public input that we'd gathered over two years. So, the work started long before we actually launched the process. It was a voluntary process, so we didn't target anyone. We went out publicly with lots of information and invited communities who were interested to let us know. And that would have them enter the process. Now, when they entered, they were expressing interest in learning about the process and exploring their potential to host it. They weren't necessarily committing to host it because the conclusion might have been that it wasn't the right fit for their area, and they were free to come to that conclusion. So, 22 communities actually raised their hand and entered that siting process. And we started working with them to determine where the site might be a good fit, and of course we were looking for some really important technical criteria. We needed things like an appropriate rock formation to make sure that the used fuel could be safely contained and isolated in that area, and we were also looking for a place where we could implement the repository in a way that positively contributes to the community's well-being as they define it. And so, we went through the site selection process collaboratively with communities and it involved a series of increasingly intensive technical studies and social engagement. We started by looking at the geology in the area. Were there any obvious reasons why the repository might not be able to be implemented there? And we did screen out one community at that early stage because the geology, based on publicly known information, just wasn't going to be viable there. And then eventually we got into field studies, and after that, deep borehole studies. And through it all, we were also working with the communities that expressed interest. And over time, their neighbors, so neighboring municipalities, and very importantly, the First Nations, whose territories the potential sites were in. And we made clear from the beginning that the project could only go forward in a place that both would be a safe place to put it, but also where the communities hosting the project understood what it meant to have a project like this in their area and supported moving forward. And so, before we selected the site, we had to confirm that it would meet all our safety criteria and that the communities, so the municipality and the First Nation, were willing to support moving forward as hosts for the project in the area. And that was a decision they themselves made before we selected the site.  

Jordan Houghton So, the local community of the Wabigoon Lake Ojibway Nation and the Township of Ignace were very supportive of volunteering their land for the repository. More than 77 percent of their community voted in favor of it. Can you share what that support meant to you and the NWMO?  

Lisa Frizzell Oh, that was a pretty exciting moment when the communities, both Ignace and Wabigoon Lake, confirmed for us that they supported moving forward. Their decision to support moving into the next steps of the process came after 14 years of the kind of technical study and social engagement I told you about. The community of Ignace was actually the very first community that expressed interest back in 2010. So, it was really nice to see that that was the area ultimately selected. And both Ignace and Wabigoon Lake really deserve a lot of credit. They worked really hard over the course of those 14 years to really learn everything they could about the project, to kick the tires from all angles, to make sure all of their questions and concerns were addressed to work with us to shape how the project could be implemented there in a way that benefits the area and to confirm that their residents and members agreed that this will be a project that would bring benefit to their area and that they supported moving forward. And they even put a lot of thought into determining how they would work with their community members to make this decision and express it to us. So, they did a ton of work, they've been great partners to work with, they considered it from all angles, they took us to task when they needed to if their needs weren't getting addressed. And those are really important aspects of a decision like this.  

Mary Carpenter So, you've touched on this a little bit, but I want to go even deeper. The NWMO uses the phrase “informed and willing community” when discussing this project. What does that actually look like in practice?  

Lisa Frizzell From the outset, we chose not to define what willingness looked like. We felt really strongly that the communities themselves had to determine what was appropriate for them. And we did that for a couple of reasons. One was the parameters for what's appropriate change over time. And if we had defined something in 2010, that might not have been acceptable anymore in 2024. So, we didn't want something to become obsolete over time. The other thing we recognized was, every community has their own practices and culture and processes for making decisions that were important to them, and we didn’t feel it was up to us to impose a process on a community when they, you know, were in a better place to determine how to make that decision. So, I'll give you an example. The process that Ignace designed was very interesting. They used a process they called deliberative democracy and they hired a third-party consultant who was completely neutral to come in and basically engage with every community member multiple times over the course of the decision-making period in the last year or so of this process. The first few times they spoke with community members, the question was, do you have the information you need to make this decision? Is there more information you need? What are the gaps? And that allowed the community to think about, okay, are we fully informed? What else do we need? And to answer any final questions they had. Once they were ready to answer the question, which was, are you ready to support this project going forward, that was the final touch point. They chose to open up that vote to community members age 16 and above, because they recognize that this is a project that's gonna affect future generations, and they even held focus groups that were age appropriate for kids younger than that. So really, everyone in the community had a voice in this. All of that data that the consultant collected culminated in a pretty detailed report that's actually available on the township's website and that went forward to their community liaison committee who made the recommendation to council that this projects should move forward, and then council, based on the strength of that information, which did include a 77 percent yes vote, unanimously recommended that they support moving forward with the project in their area.  

Jordan Houghton You mentioned that Ignace was actually the very first community to step in and ask to be considered. Why? What made them stand up and say, we want to get into this? What made it attractive to them to potentially bring the repository to their community?  

Lisa Frizzell That's a good question, and I'm not going to speak for Ignace, but I'll tell you some of the things we heard about why multiple communities came into the process because each community was a little bit different. So, some communities had a lot of experience that they thought might be relevant. So, some of them were near nuclear facilities, some like Ignace are near a lot of mines so they know what it means to work underground. Some more railway communities, so they know a lot about transporting hazardous waste. So, many of them really felt like they had something of value to contribute to this problem that Canada needed to solve. We had to find a solution for managing used nuclear fuel over the long term. Many of them also saw potential benefits because this is a very, very long-term project. It will transform a region. There are many jobs involved. There's lots of economic investments that will be involved. And there's a commitment that we made from the outset to implement it in a way that positively affects the area's wellbeing in the way that they define it. So, there's some tangible benefits in that sense. And also, as I mentioned previously, when they signed up to explore this, it really was an exploration. They were able to learn about the process over a period of years without having to commit to it until they had all the information they need. So, they also really didn't have anything to lose in that sense. It was an opportunity to have potentially an industry come to their area. And they had the time and space and support to explore it and determine if it was right for them.  

Mary Carpenter Tell us a little bit more about those benefits. What kinds of benefits, whether it's economic, educational, social, can these communities look for and how is NWMO making sure that it's sustainable over time?  

Lisa Frizzell Yeah, so the project itself will come with, you know, roughly 700 jobs at some of the peak times, and that's direct jobs, there are indirect jobs that will also result from this. It's a very long-term project, it will be implemented over decades and decades, so it's a sustainable project for the long term. And because we're talking about such a long-term project, it's allowed us to work with communities to determine how to implement it in a way that helps them achieve their goals and priorities. So, for example, in Ignace, they've had a concern that when kids grow up, they go to school and they never come back because there isn't the kinds of opportunities there, in a lot of cases, to sustain careers. So, knowing that's a priority for them, we can work together to invest in education and training and, you know, really look at the way we recruit people for the project locally to help address that priority of creating a place where local people can directly get involved and have long and fulfilling careers. And a project like this requires all kinds of skill sets from scientists and engineers to my favorite, communicators, HR people, legal, construction workers, labors, there's tons of opportunities with a project like this. And by planning ahead, because we've got such a long time horizon, we can really maximize those benefits for the community.  

Jordan Houghton What were some of the biggest goals and questions that the volunteering communities brought to the table as you went through the process? I would love to get a little bit more insight into what sorts of challenges they were concerned about and just what the dialogue looked like.  

Lisa Frizzell I would say that every community that came to this had a lot of the same concerns and questions you would imagine. What is this stuff we're talking about, anyway? What is the risk to our environment? How will we protect water? Do we have to worry about water resources in the future? How will we move the used fuel safely from where it is today to the repository? As well as questions about the potential benefits and how we could manage some of the risks that come with implementing a major infrastructure project. So, a lot of them I would say were quite typical of what you would expect. And I have to give the communities so much credit for really digging in and learning everything they needed to know before they made their willingness decision. You know they worked with us extensively, really were clear with us the information they needed, what they were hearing over time. If we weren't meeting their needs, they made that clear, too. And that's really important in this. And they didn't also just take our word for it, they sought out other third party experts, they attended conferences in nuclear energy to learn some of the technical aspects from scientists and engineers outside of the NWMO. They even brought anti-nuclear advocates into their communities to make sure that they were really considering every aspect of this project. So, they really have kicked the tires from all angles by the time they made this decision.  

Jordan Houghton How did, or how do you continue, to work with the Indigenous communities in the siting area?  

Lisa Frizzell So, it's such an important part of our work and both the Indigenous community, so Wabigoon Lake Ojibway Nation, and the Township of Ignace, continue to be extremely involved in the process going forward. This can't be a case of, okay we selected a site, now we'll just move on and implement it on our own. It is set up to be as collaborative going forward as it has been to get to this point. Both the First Nation and the municipality are going to play a very key role in regulatory decision-making processes, in decisions we have to make about implementing the project. And in the case of Wabigoon Lake Ojibway Nation, one of the things that we're doing is making sure this project passes through their regulatory process in addition to Canada's federal regulatory process, and that process is designed to make sure that the project aligns with their Anishinaabe values, and so the issues identified and mitigations put in place they'll have an opportunity to design those and ensure we implement them just like we are for the federal process. So, it really is a process that we're working on together from here on in to get through the regulatory decision-making process, make sure this project is implemented in a way that's safe and meets or exceeds all regulatory requirements, aligns with the Indigenous communities' values, and then that construction and operations go smoothly after that.  

Mary Carpenter I want to go back to something you said a little earlier about involving the youth in the community. What kind of feedback did you receive from them? I think it's so interesting that you let 16-year-olds vote and you included even younger community members in the focus groups. Tell us how they thought about the project.  

Lisa Frizzell Yeah, you know, youth engagement has been really important from the outset. That's something we heard early on from the communities involved in this process was that this is a project that, as it’s implemented over decades and decades, is really going to affect people who are really young today more than anyone else going forward. So, we've actually engaged with young people over the years in lots of ways. Some of the community liaison committees that communities set up to help facilitate learning in the community involved young people to make sure their voice was heard. We had youth-appropriate information at various types of information sessions and open houses. As you mentioned, they were involved directly in the decision-making process in Ignace. And I think a lot of times what youth bring to the table is a real eye to the future. Lots of kids even especially probably in their teens as they're thinking about next steps or thinking about career paths. There's interest in understanding what types of roles might be open to them in the future to exploring some of their interests and see how they might apply and to understand how projects like this might affect their future, their family, their community, just like other members of the community.  

Jordan Houghton This announcement is a major milestone, not just for waste management, but for nuclear energy more broadly. What is the repository's approval signal about Canada's long-term commitment to nuclear?  

Lisa Frizzell Canada's in a really interesting and exciting place right now. Like a lot of countries, our federal government has signaled that there may not be a path, there won't be a path, to a carbon-neutral future to meet our climate goals without nuclear energy. There's lots of potential projects for new nuclear being explored, the operating lives of the existing nuclear fleet has been extended, and really the plan for use nuclear fuel, the waste that results from nuclear energy, allows us to close the fuel cycle and to continue to implement these projects in a way that is good for the environment where we can be confident we're not creating problems for future generations and that helps meet some of our national goals to transform our energy system and support energy security and climate change targets.  

Jordan Houghton If you look at this through a global lens, what do you think the world, other countries, can learn from how Canada approached this, especially when it comes to balancing science, safety, and social consent?  

Lisa Frizzell So, international collaboration is actually a really, really important part of the work of, I think it's fair to say, any organization like ours. There are multiple countries that are implementing projects like this, and we all learn from each other to make sure that we're always using the best international knowledge that's available and learning from each other’s experiences. So, for example, right now, Finland has built a repository and is getting ready to start operations. Sweden has broken ground on their repository, so they've started building it. In France, they have a site and they're going through a regulatory process, they've applied for a construction license. And in Switzerland, they've also selected a site and have just started their regulatory process. We've selected our site and are getting ready to start our regulatory process. And several others like the UK and Japan, for example, are earlier on in their site selection process. We all work together to make sure that we're sharing information between us and with the public about projects like this and how we know that they are safe and that we're implementing them in the best possible way. So, all that collaboration I talked to you about on a local level also happens on an international level. And I think what we've learned is that as each one of these projects proceed, it continues to build confidence. This is a normal path forward for countries with commercial nuclear programs, and the more of these that advance, the more information we have to draw from and the more confidence we can bring to the public that we know exactly how to handle used nuclear fuel.  

Mary Carpenter That's so interesting. And you're in such a cool position because you really are a model for other nuclear waste solutions around the world. So, it's good to hear that collaboration is happening and other countries can look at Canada and hopefully follow in your footsteps.  

Lisa Frizzell We take our role really seriously. We have benefited directly from the countries that are ahead of us, and we really see it as important that we also share our experience. So, just to give you an example, as the repository in Finland has been constructed and they've been testing all of their systems to get ready for operations. We've had engineers on the ground to see that firsthand, and experience it firsthand, and bring back those learnings to Canada. We also, when we were in our site selection process, we had mayors from communities that will host similar projects in Finland and Sweden. Interact with communities in our process so that they could learn from them and ask questions about why they arrived at the decisions they arrived, at and what benefits and risks they're seeing and how things were happening on the ground there. We even sent people from the communities considering this project all the way to Finland so they could see the repository firsthand. Conversely, we've also had people from the UK who's a little earlier in a site selection process. They've come here to learn from the communities that we're working with. And they've invited some of our specialists there so they could learn from us. So, it really is an active process of sharing information because each one of these projects that succeeds in moving to the next step is a success for us all.  

Jordan Houghton What's the next milestone in your project?  

Lisa Frizzell So we are getting ready to start the regulatory decision-making process. That is a lengthy and very robust process as it should be to independently confirm that this project will meet all of the safety requirements required for a project like this to move forward. So, we're aiming to kick off that process later this year. We're actually getting ready to collaborate with communities, the host communities, right now to have input into some of the documents that we're creating to kick off that process. And that process itself has its own public engagement process that will continue on. It's a very transparent process. Eventually, once we get through all of the evaluations and the analysis and the public input, there will be hearings as well. Coming out the other end there will be a regulatory decision and licensing processes as well we need to go through. We expect that that will take a number of years and then in the early 2030s, we hope to begin building the repository. So, it's a long process but certainly a worthwhile one, and one that involves continued collaboration all along the way.  

Mary Carpenter Do you have an estimated timeline for when the project will be completed or is there just too many things to go through before then?  

Lisa Frizzell It's an estimated timeline. 

Mary Carpenter Yeah.  

Lisa Frizzell So, we expect to begin construction in the 2030s. We think that'll take about 10 years to get the repository to a place where we're ready to start moving used nuclear fuel into it. So, in the 2040s, we'll start the process of emplacing the used fuel underground. Based on the inventory, we expect to have to put underground, looking at what we think the existing fleet of reactors will generate for us to manage, we think that process of moving used fuel will take about 50 years. Once that's completed, we've assumed a fairly lengthy monitoring process; we've assumed about 70 years. It'll be up to future society to make those decisions, I'll be retired by then! So, you know, we've assumed 70 years of monitoring to make sure that the community that the regulator and that the NWMO are comfortable that everything's working as it should before they take a decision to completely backfill and decommission the facility. So, when I told you this was a multi-generational project, I was not misleading you! It is a multi-generational project that is about 150 years long, give or take, from start to finish.  

Mary Carpenter Wow. 

Jordan Houghton It’s incredible. I mean, actually, the time—the timeline is short when you're thinking about generations, like, when you're saying you will—are planning to start moving used fuel in the 2040s, that's really not that far away at all when you are thinking about this as a generations-long project in totality.  

Lisa Frizzell You know, as communicator, one of the most interesting and maybe challenging aspects of communicating about a project like this has to do with time. It's very hard for us to wrap our heads around the kinds of timeframes we're talking about. So, you know, we're the only organization I can think of that has Ice Ages built into our business plans. We are planning a project that is meant to withstand Ice Ages. So, making sure that this is safe for hundreds of thousands of years is one aspect of time we're talking about. In the more near-term range, the timelines are still long. So, if you think about the 14 years the community of Ignace, for example, was involved in the siting process, there were multiple election cycles in that time. There were multiple mayors. The mayor that kicked off that process is not the mayor that saw it through. And, you know, in all likelihood, the leaders in place now, both in the communities and at the NWMO, will not be the same leaders in place when we start building and certainly when we start operating because we're talking about a couple decades from now when we get to that point. So, there really is a constant phase of passing the baton and adjusting plans and making sure we adapt as we go, because things change over time. So, that concept of time on multiple levels is a really interesting aspect of this.  

Mary Carpenter The Ice Age. I mean, that's just proof that you've thought about everything.  

Lisa Frizzell I think so!  

Mary Carprenter It's so detailed! Amazing.  

Lisa Frizzell It also makes my job a lot of fun because I work with very smart people who know everything there is to know about things like how much glaciers weigh and how long it takes for copper to corrode and things like that. So, you know, when I say the communities have kicked the tires from all angles, I think it's fair to say we have as well.  

Jordan Houghton Okay. Last question for you. A book you're reading or are you finished reading recently that you would recommend to our listeners? 

Lisa Frizzell Honestly, I'm drawing a blank which is terrible because I'm such a bookworm, but I can get back to you with a recommendation that you can share with your listeners. How's that?  

Mary Carpenter Sounds good. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It can be a technical topic, but you really made it easy to understand. So, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Lisa, for joining us! And Lisa followed up with us with her book recommendation that we have to add to the Fissionary book club. It is Hum If You Don't Know the Words, it's a Toronto-based writer named Bianca Marais. It's wonderful piece of historical fiction set in apartheid-era South Africa.  

Jordan Houghton I love it, I am not familiar with this book, it's also going on the list. We've had a lot of really good recommendations already this season.  

Mary Carpenter Yeah, I love how we are receiving such a wide variety of books, like not just one genre, they're all different, so that's exciting.  

Jordan Houghton Yes. Well, thank you so much to our listeners for hanging out with Mary and me today, we had a great time talking about waste. If you still have questions about waste, nuclear waste, there are a lot of people that you can reach out to who will be happy to answer your questions. There are no stupid questions when it comes to this. It's a topic we talk about all the time. Reach out to your local university's nuclear engineering department, reach out to the national labs, local museums. There's a lot of people that can earnestly answer your questions on this. And I hope we get to cover this again sometime soon. It would be great to get an update from Lisa in the future on how things are progressing.  

Mary Carpenter Yeah, there's no stupid questions on nuclear waste, and there's no green goo, so. 

Jordan Houghton Yes! No green goo! She did a really good job of explaining what used fuel actually is.  

Mary Carpenter A couple of weeks ago, I was at Plant Vogtle and they showed us where they store waste now without a permanent repository. And I mean, it's just some casks in a field and there's not many of them. And I think people need to realize the amount of nuclear waste produced by a year’s worth of a person's energy use would be approximately the size of a gummy bear, and the total amount of waste for a person's entire lifetime would fit inside a soda can. So, we're not talking about these huge amounts of waste. I don't think a lot of people realize. And it's being stored safely now, and hopefully we'll have a long-term solution in the near future. Either way, it's not anything for anyone to worry about.  

Jordan Houghton Yep, I love the social media trend videos of people kissing the nuclear waste casks. 

Mary Carpenter Yeah! 

Jordan Houghton That you can like get right up next to them, you can touch them, you can stand next to them, and it is totally and perfectly safe.  

Mary Carpenter Yeah. Check out Kyle Hill's video where he's kissing the cask. It's great.  

Jordan Houghton Love it. Well, thanks everybody for tuning in, and make sure to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to stay updated on all things Fissionary, and we'll see you back here soon.