Night at the (Nuclear) Museum

Jennifer Hayden That through our artifacts, our displays and our exhibits, it almost acts as a mirror to everyone who actually comes in. They bring in their backgrounds, their knowledge, everything that makes them who they are. 

Mary Carpenter This is Fissionary, a show exploring how nuclear powers your world. I'm Mary Carpenter. 

Jordan Houghton And I'm Jordan Houghton. Let's jump in. 

Mary Carpenter Welcome back to Fissionary. This season we're asking a big question: what powers wonder? 

Jordan Houghton And today we're talking to someone who helps shape that kind of perspective every single day. Jennifer Hayden, she's the president and CEO of the National Museum of Nuclear Science and History in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It was so awesome to talk to another museum person. I got into nuclear via working in a nuclear museum, and so this is something I'm really passionate about and just love the work that she and all the nuclear museums across the country do. 

Mary Carpenter Yeah, Jordan, I love the connection that we have between you and our guest today. Tell us a little bit about which museum you worked at. 

Jordan Houghton So I spent several years working at the National Atomic Testing Museum in Las Vegas, which is focused—most of the atomic weapons were tested in Nevada, so the museum is very focused on Nevada's role in the nuclear weapons program. So, it is a weapons-focused museum, which I feel like gives an interesting opportunity for conversation and segueing into energy, medicine space and we get into that a lot with Jennifer. But the thing that I found most interesting about being in the museum world is—I do feel like museums are a safe space to come and ask questions. And when you're talking about something as consequential as nuclear weapons, there are a lot of really great questions to ask. And I feel like people, for the most part, come in and they're really genuine about the questions they have and what they want to know and they're really open to learning and having the information presented to them. And it's just a really great place to have conversations around people's questions about science and history. 

Mary Carpenter Did you have a favorite moment with a guest from when you worked there? 

Jordan Houghton You know what? I loved the kids because kids especially—I'm gonna say like a sweet spot of middle school, like, they know enough to ask some really great questions, but they, like, haven't turned the full filters on yet, so they'll just ask you stuff. And it's always really good questions and I love how smart kids are. Like, we think about kids, we discount them, they don't have a lot of world experience yet, but they come in and they just ask these questions that knock you off your feet. It's something you would expect a full-grown educated adult to ask, and you're getting it from an 11-year-old. And I loved every minute of that. I—just as much as I could interact with the kids, I would, I would do it. 

Mary Carpenter That's awesome. It sounds like the story Jennifer tells us today about the 10-year-old boy who was at her museum and how interested he is in a future in nuclear, so, very important work you guys are doing at the museums, and really excited for you guys to hear from Jennifer today about it. 

Jordan Houghton Jennifer Hayden is the president and CEO of the National Museum of Nuclear Science and History in Albuquerque, New Mexico. She has spent more than 16 years working at the museum and helping it evolve and has held various roles over the years. We are so excited to have you on the podcast today, Jennifer, thank you so much for being here. 

Jennifer Hayden Thank you, I'm excited to be here. 

Mary Carpenter Yeah, thanks for joining us. And this season we're exploring how far imagination and curiosity can carry us and how those forces shape the world. As someone who helps tell the story of nuclear to the public every day, what do you think powers wonder in your work and what sparks that curiosity for you? 

Jennifer Hayden Oh my goodness. Being in a museum is really being in an informal education center. That I was meeting with a group yesterday at the National Museum of Nuclear Science and History, and I said it a few times that through our artifacts, our displays and our exhibits, it almost acts as a mirror to everyone who actually comes in. They bring in their backgrounds, their knowledge, everything that makes them who they are. And then they are able to look at what we provide as far as exhibits, displays, anywhere from Manhattan Project and Cold War to nuclear energy, the peaceful uses of nuclear, energy and medicine. And then they draw their own conclusions. So being in a museum is—it's been my passion, it's what I went back to school for. And I think that's one of the best areas to really go in and learn in an informal way that can help light a fire for you as an individual. 

Jordan Houghton Jennifer, this is such a great point you just made, I want to ask you a little bit more about this. You've been at the museum for a long time now, 16 plus years. What first drew you to the museum, and then what has kept you there all these years? 

Jennifer Hayden I've always had a passion for museums. I think a lot of it came from my grandfather. My grandfather was in World War II, he was on the USS Enterprise. He was at the Battle of Midway, saw the testings at Bikini Atoll. And I traveled with my grandfather and my grandmother quite a bit during the summer with my sister, where we would go on aircraft carriers and destroyers, submarines, because we would go to naval bases. And I think a lot of it came from him, just that passion for history and museums in general. I also come from a family full of teachers with my mother, my sister. And it's one of those things that I feel like I'm in an educational institution through museums. That there's always something to learn, and I'm always able to share that information with the public. 

Mary Carpenter So, how has your perception of nuclear evolved since stepping into this work?

Jennifer Hayden So, I'm originally from West Texas. And when you think of where I'm from, you people think of Pantex. Where I am now, it's Sandia National Labs or Los Alamos National Laboratory. And so I come from an area where I thought more of deterrence or global leadership, being the Manhattan Project, Cold War uses of nuclear. When I came to this museum, we tell the story of the atomic age. So, it's early developments, Manhattan Project and Cold War, to peaceful uses, nuclear energy, space exploration, and medicine. And I've had an opportunity through Nuclear Science Week—which our museum runs, we run it every year—I've had a lot of opportunities to travel the nation. And there have been instances when I ask students in New Mexico, what do you think of when you hear nuclear? Oftentimes they'll say war or bombs or the atomic bomb. When I'm in other areas of the country, specifically, I was in Wilmington, North Carolina. And it was one of those instances where I said, “what do you think of?” to the students. And they said, oh, electricity, light bulbs. Turning on the lights. And so because of Nuclear Science Week and the museum specifically, with everything that we teach, I have come to have a very strong appreciation for nuclear energy. It's something that I never thought that my passion or my interest would go in that way specifically, even to energy alone, but it really has. And I definitely think it's because my time at the museum and as chair of Nuclear Science Week. 

Jordan Houghton That's so fascinating because obviously, when I was at the museum in Vegas and you asked that same question—actually, of anyone in Las Vegas—it's also bombs that first come to mind. And it's really cool to think about going to talk to students in other areas of the country and they're not colored by that—by that part of history, which is really optimistic actually for the next generation coming up through the world. 

Jennifer Hayden I have 200 8th graders in the museum right now. And the way that generationally everyone does look at nuclear in a variety of different ways, depending on what their background was, where they came from, it's very interesting. That's definitely been a a good learning environment at the museum. 

Mary Carpenter Let's talk a little bit about the redesign of the nuclear energy exhibit. Can you tell us a little bit about the original exhibit and what it inspired the refresh and what it's gonna look like now? 

Jennifer Hayden Our museum is 56 years old. We were established in 1969. We were located on Kirtland Air Force Base, and we had to close our doors at that location forever when 9/11 happened due to heightened security measures. We had to relocate to a very culturally significant area of Albuquerque for about seven years, in Old Town, so we could raise the money to move into the building where we sit now. So we have been in this building for 16 years. I started at the museum right when we opened, and we did an amazing job talking about history of nuclear. We have done an amazing job talking about the Manhattan Project and Cold War, pop culture, nuclear waste disposal. But it always seemed to me over the years, and it became more prevalent in my mind, especially through Nuclear Science Week and learning more through Southern Nuclear, Idaho National Laboratory, all of these amazing partners that we work with, that our nuclear energy exhibit—maybe we didn't have the partners that we have today to really tell the full story. And I do provide tours. Oftentimes they're the VIP tours at the museum. And when you walk through our museum, it really comes to an end, or close to the end, in our nuclear energy gallery area, which is a very large footprint. And I found myself kind of running through the exhibit. I—there are certain areas that we talk about Palo Verde Generating Station, which is fantastic. But other areas just didn't have the information or the engagement to keep people's attention. And it truly came from a phone call with leadership at a national laboratory that's actually not here in New Mexico and they said, have you ever considered doing an exhibit on fusion? And so that conversation made me think, well, not just fusion. What if it was the past, present, and future of nuclear energy? Fusion being part of it, small modular reactors, looking at the past, EBR1, EBR2, Argonne National Laboratories, talking to Southern Nuclear, let's talk about Vogtles 3 and 4. And so all of it kind of came about to where we started reaching out to our industry partners for their help in order for us to tell the most factual story possible. And we hope to open it—we will open it in the fall of 2027. 

Jordan Houghton That's so exciting. I'm thinking about—you're talking about partnering with national lab scientists, engineers to help shape the exhibit. What has it been like collaborating with all the different entities that are coming together, and how do you feel like that's helping shape the tone and content? 

Jennifer Hayden Oh, it's amazing. I mean, it is industry partners, so it is companies such as Kairos Power, Southern Nuclear. We're hoping for others to become involved. Hopefully Pacific Fusion. Definitely the National Laboratories, Lawrence Livermore, Idaho National Labs, Argonne. It's been interesting because those are the experts. Those are the women and men who work in it every single day. And they know what they're talking about. And it's very important to me as a museum professional to tell the most factual, unbiased story possible. And talking to these people, my biggest fear is I'm going to leave out certain industry partners. I can't talk to everybody, but they are giving us the information, the technical expertise, the photographs, the possible artifacts to show, the stories that we then take it at the museum. And my curator creates a script and a design to where most museums provide information at a middle school junior high level. So, we will then sculpt it and then we will design it to create this story of the past, present, and future. And it's been wonderful. 

Mary Carpenter That's so exciting. Jordan, we'll have to take Fissionary on the road in 2027.

Jordan Houghton Yes!

Mary Carpenter That's awesome. So, I know I'm sure you get all kinds of people coming through the museum and you're doing all these new, exciting things. How do you make nuclear accessible and exciting to just the general public?  

Jennifer Hayden Really, it's—we try to be as engaging as possible. So, in our exhibits, people can oftentimes get hands-on or they can watch videos. We have the largest collection of oral histories from the Manhattan Project. That people can listen to here, but they can also listen online. When it comes to our museum, we are not shy about hosting events as well. So, family events, events for students, Nuclear Science Week, we host to over a thousand title one students who are generally middle school and high school to come in and learn about nuclear, the five pillars, energy, medicine, space exploration, innovation and technology, and global leadership. We also have events that are family-oriented, so STEAM is very important to us. We even do outdoor movie nights. And so outdoor movie nights, we have an outdoor, nine-acre exhibit area that holds a lot of aircraft, military vehicles, and people can come and watch a movie. We are a 501(c)(3) nonprofit. So, we are able to get grants or sponsors to where we can actually pay for busing and admission for students to come in so that the school doesn't have to find that. But it truly is that, along with having a very talented museum team, that we've redone quite a few of our permanent exhibits recently. And I'm in awe of my exhibit designer, of what he does to create it, to make it a whole different world when people come in. So that they're in an inclusive, welcoming environment to learn really cool aspects of nuclear. 

Jordan Houghton Museums are really like a “no dumb question” space. 

Jennifer Hayden Yes, I agree!

Mary Carpenter So, you kind of mentioned hands-on experiences a little bit. Is there anything you can tell us for in the new nuclear exhibit that's gonna be a hands-on experience? 

Jennifer Hayden I have so many ideas, whether it's projection screens that show you how the cooling tower works, whether it is a—the console within a nuclear reactor that you could actually work and look up at projections and see what's happening. We're not there yet. We've raised the money for it, which is a huge—it was a huge undertaking, but so invigorating to see that we have the money. More to come. We don't know yet, but we have a lot of ideas that we're gonna have to kind of pare down. 

Mary Carpenter That's really exciting. 

Jennifer Hayden Yes. 

Mary Carpenter So in our last episode, we spoke with Sam Gennawey about Walt Disney's vision for a nuclear-powered city. And he mentioned visiting your museum and seeing your “Our Friend the Atom” exhibit. So, like, how does that feel to know that a single exhibit can leave such a lasting impression? 

Jennifer Hayden Well—and it's funny, that's a temporary exhibit. And it's made me think, I want to keep it forever, I just need to find the space. I love it. I think very high of leadership within Disney. Disney touches so many people. And the fact that we were able to add it into a temporary exhibit here and someone took something from it, that means the world to me. Everybody comes in with a different purpose. Maybe it's just, oh, I've got an hour to kill before I go to the airport, or I'm going to be here for eight hours and I will be back here tomorrow to learn even more. And no matter what the purpose is coming to the museum, when people say I saw something and it was really cool to see that, and I hope to see more or even trigger them to learn more, it's quite possibly the best compliment I can receive as a leader at a museum. 

Jordan Houghton Tell us a little bit more about the exhibit. What is in it? How does it tell the story of Disney and “Our friend the Atom”? 

Jennifer Hayden So this area—it closes this month, and then we'll have another temporary exhibit come up—this was science fiction versus fact, which is something that we have a large collection of nuclear related toys, comic books, movie memorabilia, because of a donation that had been made to us many years ago. And so we show really how things in someone's mind—in this case, it's Walt Disney—in his mind is a nuclear-powered Tomorrowland. We have an area talking about that, showing some of the artifacts as far as toys and things that back when some of these things didn't exist, even Star Trek, like the flip phone, or the thing where you could actually look and now it's Zoom or FaceTime, that how something back in history was just fiction, science fiction. We never thought it could be, and now today is actually something that we use every single day and don't even think twice about. So, that—we also talked about Orson Welles, the War of the Worlds. It's a very intriguing exhibit because it brings to life so many things that are near and dear to our heart, whether it's Star Wars, Star Trek, Disney, and then it brings out the fact that wow, who knew that things back—that were just science fiction are things that we actually do live with today. 

Jordan Houghton Pop culture's, like, just a great way to reach people. 'Cause it's, you know, TVs, movies, music, things that people consume, going to Disney parks, for example, you can, like, lure them in with something that's like very familiar to them and then suddenly they know so much more. 

Mary Carpenter So, kind of building on that, what role do you think museums like yours can play in shifting public narratives about nuclear? 

Jennifer Hayden It is a place where people can learn—it's a safe place where people can learn. It is—we, at our—at the National Museum of Nuclear Science and History, again, we try to remain as factual and unbiased as possible, that people can come in and draw their own conclusions. So, they can come in and learn about everything. Whether it's Manhattan Project, they see nuclear weapon shapes because it's Cold War. And then going into medicine. Okay, look at the X-ray machine, the CAT scan, all of these different things. Why? Why is that nuclear? In the nuclear energy exhibit that we do have now, and it's not revitalized yet, it does still talk about that. Learning how, specifically at Palo Verde Generating Station in Arizona, how much electricity do they create? How do they create it? What does that look like? So, it provides knowledge in a way that people can come in and on their own terms, learn, on their own time, and make their own conclusions, draw their own conclusions. That to me, I feel like it is—even when our students come into the museum, there's no testing. There might be some sitting and learning about different things, listening to speakers, but it's in a fun way. It's engaging. You can take it or you can leave it, truly, and all of the different things. And always, even just walking through, people oftentimes even say, oh, I didn't even think about mining. That there is uranium mining that is used in a lot of different areas in America and around the world. And we have that at the museum. So, just a place to maybe learn in a more fun and engaging way. That is what museums are to me. 

Jordan Houghton I'm really excited about your revamped energy exhibit. We're talking about people's perceptions based on where they come from. You're obviously in an area proximal to Los Alamos. So, you expect a lot of people to primarily think about weapons. And I think it's so cool that you can maybe bring people in and they're expecting that. And then you're like, wow, nuclear medicine, nuclear energy, space, but that that's something that surprises a lot of people too, I think the extent to which nuclear power can play a role in space travel. Just really cool for opening people's imaginations. 

Jennifer Hayden I've always felt this way, that it has—it's a bit of a taboo subject depending on who you're speaking with. When it comes to nuclear energy, I had a very interesting experience one time, even talking about nuclear energy on a local TV station. In Albuquerque, New Mexico, we have a very prominent balloon fiesta. It's hot air balloons. It's the biggest in the world. And I was on the fiesta and I was on TV one morning and I spoke about the museum and they asked me about nuclear energy. And I said it's a wonderful carbon-free energy source and kept talking about the museum, I kept looping it around to the museum, and by the time I stood up, walked off the stage and looked at my phone, I had received an email from somebody. They were irate that I had said that it is a carbon-free energy source. And it was one of those things that—that was a defining moment for me because I mean he really tore into me via email. And I thought, you know, I definitely want more information shared about nuclear energy so people can make very educated decisions when they do draw their own conclusions. And so, it's something that I'm excited to have the opportunity to even provide, just at the most basic level, more information about our history as far as where nuclear came from and then our present and future when it comes to the peaceful uses. 

Jordan Houghton Are there any other moments with visitors or feedback that you've gotten that it really stand out to you? 

Jennifer Hayden Oh yes. I mean, there have been moments that—there have been two different types. Making me so proud of working at the museum has been the opportunities to work with people in the nuclear energy industry. It's been so relevant to me that there's this entire world of energy that we are desperately in need of. And learning more about nuclear energy has been amazing. And it was recently. I had gone into the museum gift store to speak with one of my team members, and she stopped me, and she said, I want you to know that there is a family here from Oklahoma, and they have told me that this is hands down the best museum they have ever been to. And he heard her tell me this, the husband, the dad, and he walks over to me and he said, that was me. This is the best museum my family and I have ever been to. He said, we saw your rack card at a hotel, and my 10-year-old son picked it up and said, I want to go here. His son is interested in maybe being an engineer one day. And it was something about us, nuclear, that he said, I want to come, so they brought him here and they spent many hours. The little boy, the 10-year-old, told me he said, when I get back to school, I'm gonna write a paper about your museum and nuclear engineering. And so that alone, I feel like we always have the hope to light a fire in our students who come, whether it's STEM, STEAM, nuclear specific, that maybe this instance, their one visit to the museum, something ignites in them, making them think, this might be what I want to do when I'm older. And so that literally was only a few weeks ago. But the fact to hear them, shake the little boy's hand, thank the mother for coming as well, it was a great experience. So, that will always stay with me. 

Jordan Houghton That's so cool!

Jennifer Hayden Yeah.

Jordan Houghton It powered wonder!

Mary Carpenter Yeah!

Jennifer Hayden It did! It did. He came in and loved every aspect. And who knows, maybe he'll be one of our future nuclear scientists or engineers. 

Mary Carpenter Yeah, what a good recruitment tool the museum is. That's amazing. Okay, last question that we're asking our guests this season. Is there a person, place, or thing that left you in awe recently? 

Jennifer Hayden Oh my goodness. Yes. He is an amazing man, his name is Ken Rendell. He is well known as far as within the museum world. He was the founder of the—I believe the National World War II Museum in Boston. He also has done many great amazing things as far as looking at different artifacts, different papers, making sure that they are accurate, that they are real. He is a gentleman who has lived a life that I can only imagine. And he travels and he has done so many things and has met so many amazing people to the point where he did say that he was actually able to ask President Truman about the decision to drop the atomic bomb. 

Mary Carpenter Oh my gosh. 

Jennifer Hayden He is a person that I don't know if I've ever met anyone quite as interesting as him. And I'm lucky it's because of my position at this museum and my amazing board chair, who is the retired executive director of the CIA museum, I was able to meet him. So my time at the museum has allowed me to meet some of the most amazing people. And Ken Rendell is probably one of the top ones. 

Mary Carpenter Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been so interesting, and I have to get out to the museum. I wanna see it. 

Jennifer Hayden You let me know and I will give you a tour! I'm happy to do so. 

Jordan Houghton Jennifer, thank you so much for taking us inside the museum and showing us how design, storytelling, and science can come together to change how people think about energy and the whole of the nuclear field, medicine space included. What a great conversation. Mary, I was really excited that we got Jennifer to talk about her favorite artifact at her museum. And I'm wondering, have you ever seen an artifact somewhere that's really stuck with you, made an impression? 

Mary Carpenter Yeah, I'd probably say when I was younger, we saw when they brought Sue to the history museum in Chicago, the big dinosaur, and that really goes along with our theme of sparking wonder. Because that was just so exciting and so cool to see. It wasn't the whole dinosaur when we were there. It was just pieces of it, eventually they brought a lot more. But just seeing how cool that was to see a real dinosaur bone made me want to visit so many more museums and just see how much cool stuff is around the world, so that was probably my first memory of really sparking interest in museums and seeing all the cool things that they have. What about you? 

Jordan Houghton I remember when I was a kid, I was totally obsessed with The Wizard of Oz. Absolutely loved the movie, would watch it all the way through and immediately go back and start watching it over again. And when I was, I think around eight or nine years old, my mom took me to the Smithsonian here in DC of the Smithsonian Museum of American History here in DC. And I was able to see the ruby slippers from the movie and I was blown away. I was so excited. I couldn't believe I was seeing like the real thing, similar to seeing a real dinosaur bone. I was like, these are really the shoes that were on Judy Garland's feet. And I was so excited about it. 

Mary Carpenter You know those are still there. I sometimes just go on walks and just stop in to see them. 

Jordan Houghton I know. And that like one of the coolest things about being in DC is like you just pop into these museums that we have here and see the most amazing historically significant artifacts just like casually in the afternoon. 

Mary Carpenter It's funny with those slippers—when my niece was here last summer, we took her to see them, not impressed. And I thought that Wicked might bring, you know, like a new sense of excitement about it. But the ruby slippers I don't think really translated to the younger generation.

Jordan Houghton  I think they made a huge impression. I mean, I also really just love shoes. 

Mary Carpenter Yeah, yeah, me too! 

Jordan Houghton I don't maybe it was sparked there. Maybe that's how it started. I don't know. But the moral of this story, kids, is go visit your local museums. You're gonna see something that sparks your curiosity and imagination. 

Mary Carpenter There's so much to see. Well, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to follow Fissionary on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And while you're at it, leave us a rating or review, it really helps others discover the show. 

Jordan Houghton Thanks for listening, we'll see you next time.